Plex Generated External Web Application

[WayneMorgan]

Is there a consensus on the best way to Use PLEX to generate a Web Based (External to Firewall) Application that will allow Editable 'Panels' with real time lookup to backend Server

Java Applet ? ADC Web Client? .NET / Websydian ? Native HTML/JSP - or are we still not there yet and use another Tool ?

with all the different options - who has got which mechanism to Work ? what are the major issues to resolve (intemediary servers)? $$$

are theer any Docs out there with actual Detail on how to get a simple web based app to work in the real world - not just in a theoritical demo

[Deactivated User]

waynemorgan,

We've had a Plex/Websydian ordering application running externally for a decade or so. Works really well, is very fast. No additional firewall other than the one in place to protect the machine (one of many LPARs). Using https.

We use 2E's Web Option to expose our 5250 application to the Web. Works really well, very fast, but as with anything internet the performance we see internally may not match external performance because once traffic leaves our server it can go anywhere...

We also have ExtJS/PHP application that talks to the i to access data directly using SQL and for calls to 2E generated functions for business rules. That also works really well.

Our i is sat on the internet (well, some of the LPAR's are). Firewall in place to stop a lot of traffic, but HTTP/HTTPS is open. no extra server in the way, no need really.

Looking at Websydian's ExtJS generator to see what it can do for us for the UI. We're going to keep database and business rules in 2E so that we are not duplcating code. Promising so far (I have replaced all the Plex data access functions with 2E generated ones and just replace the function via tiples and it works nicely). Going off on a tangent now...

I'm sure that Web Client works just as well too, but I have not had any experience there.

So, I think that we are there (Plex and Web applications), and have been for some time...

Crispin.

[WayneMorgan]

Any ideas if the following mechanism for allowing trusted .net Applications inside a browser would allow the .NET Client to function as a web based app (similar to the Java Applet Mechanism

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg192793(v=VS.95).aspx

[Deactivated User]

No idea, don't do .NET myself. I imagine that Rob Layzell knows though! Ask CA support...

Crispin.

[WayneMorgan]

So for your Websydian Solution the only additional license cost was for Websydian (and a server for that to run on) - Last I looked at this (10 years ago it was super $$$) so will have to re-look at if this would even be an option

[Deactivated User]

No need for an additional server to run it. We could have just as easily run the Websydian application on any of our other LPAR's. But we carved out an LPAR for the Websydian application. It was a decade or so ago, and back then opening up our main application to the Web was a scary idea for network folks. But we have been running Web option on those LPAR's for many years now (8 or 9), along with the main 5250 application. The only LPAR's that are not exposed directly to the web are our development/QA LPAR's, and there's no need for them to be exposed. Some other reasons why not as well, but that's not really part of this discussion...

I am one that doesn't see the issue with having an IBM i exposed to the web...

Crispin.

[Anon Anon]

Hi there Wayne,

The link you sent relates to Silverlight applications only - the first iteration of the CA Plex Option for .NET released at Plex r7.0 generates full Windows Presentation Foundation applications that target the desktop, rather than the browser; and as such, the details in the link do not apply. However, we are investigating upgrading the CA Plex Option for .NET to support the generation of Xaml Browser Applications (XBAP) that can run as trusted applications within the browser.

HTH,

-Rob

[WayneMorgan]

So am I correct in deducing that pretty much the only way to get a plex application running on the Web (in a browser) in the near future is either to use Websydian or to use the JAVA Generator and package as an APPLET - ?? not sure if the IwebClient from ADC ever made it to fruition but from memory - that was essencially a java screen scraper that took the JAVA Generated App and converted to a prettier HTML format

[George Jeffcock]

Firstly good replies,

Secondly I would look at http://wiki.plex-xml.com/index.php/Main_Page

I would also look and enquire from CA about the Page object in plex, unsupported but in principle rumored to work

The questions I would ask would be:
Is it prudent t to look at creating a new tier in plex if resources are not available.
What is the state of the application that needs to go online, monolithic block or granular as if it is already granualr then this could be a fast and cheap way 18304332

If I had a choice today and it was me doing the work and I did not have to worry about being run over by a bus and I was a predominaty as400 site I would buy websydian EXPRESS with xjs and knock the work out in a flash.


Actually I couldn't bring my self to do a new tier in plex I would look at using plex to leverage the existing code into a soa approach and try with out having to buy a new licinece put webservices onto my soa objects such as wcf that came in plex 6.1. Then with tight control of the business logic and data I would hire out the front end to a third party to developer and deliver a beautiful slick front end written in what ever they liked using my webservices and business objects all created in plex.

[WayneMorgan]

fortunately or unfortunately - The application has not been written yet as we only got the go ahead to 'Build something' today - It will only be probably a few enquiry Panels and a few data Entry/validation Panels to start with - we currently use plex for Internal apps and as usual there is a tighter than ideal timeline - in that we need to get the application built - plex was suggested as an option so we can build on it later - but the perception is still that getting plex to deliver a web based app requires an act of god - I will check out the wiki as suggested also

[George Jeffcock]

What platform, winc apps, on as400 backend. Important to know one to know the skill types and levels and secondly some solutions were better on iis rather then as400 for example.

Any other in house skills, web development is not the same as GUI panel dev as I'm sure you know

[WayneMorgan]

Currently we have Iseries back End (2/E & Plex) that we already use some Webservices to connect both from plex and Java Interfaces for other departments using REDHAT/JAVA connecting to the Iseries

we are considering putting a SQL server 'Intermediary Warehouse' between the Iseries and External site as we know eventually we will need data from a Non-iseries box also to present to the Web so maybe worth consolodating now and using the SOA archiecture that we have -

as previously said - we are looking at delivering a basic set of functionality failrly quickly to a client (that may be throw away if not the long term architecture) but I am trying determine if plex is even an option - I was hoping or if we off load it to a different group - but will add to timeline
i have also considered the basic HTML generator from 2/E but that has it's limitations also - another option is to develop the ap pas athick client (C++ or .NET and using Citrix Web to deliver to the client)

there have been many theoretical demos of CA/plex and the web over the years but the obly one I have actually seen work is WEBSYDIAn - but that was 10+ years ago and was awkward to say the least to setup and get done


as you say alternatively we just use 'traditional' Java/HTML/JSP app development

[George Jeffcock]

Cool great answer.

Currently we have Iseries back End (2/E & Plex) that we already use some Webservices to connect both from plex and Java Interfaces for other departments using REDHAT/JAVA connecting to the Iseries

Tick you have the inhouse exeperince to tackle any of the solutions

waynemorgan wrote:

we are considering putting a SQL server 'Intermediary Warehouse' between the Iseries and External site as we know eventually we will need data from a Non-iseries box also to present to the Web so maybe worth consolodating now and using the SOA archiecture that we have -

- I would take this as strat and the over arching decision on your solution. Plex is very good in my opinion on being the glue between these two platforms. I would continue with SOA (quick plug maybe this would be of interest : How others do it ) and build your back end for this new standlone ssytem in plex but with the buisness services patternised to deal with dynamic partinoning but intiallly for them to read from an SQL serve for your new standalone backend but with an eye on the future of reusing these business patterns to help with fetching and updating to both sql and dds in the gradual movement to and from sql/dds but he expense of this can be born on this standalone system.

as previously said - we are looking at delivering a basic set of functionality failrly quickly to a client (that may be throw away if not the long term architecture) but I am trying determine if plex is even an option - I was hoping or if we off load it to a different group - but will add to timeline

agreed thirdy party adds time but if you want a slick front end and quickly you need specialism, this depends on the clients requirments

i have also considered the basic HTML generator from 2/E but that has it's limitations also - another option is to develop the ap pas athick client (C++ or .NET and using Citrix Web to deliver to the client)

if you can get away with this, ie the client is happy with it then this would be the quickest route by far and cheapest, do a quick proof of concept first thing monday morning and try the client out. But am of the opinion there is no subsitituion for actually going to the web but I still like your idea and if it works and clients agrees then you are done for the short term

there have been many theoretical demos of CA/plex and the web over the years but the obly one I have actually seen work is WEBSYDIAn - but that was 10+ years ago and was awkward to say the least to setup and get done

I am a big fan of websydain and they are bright gouys, EXPRESS really is out of the box and it will do things that other routes you might bite you latter like language support, Messaging,security etc. Their online docs are great ESPECIALLY on how to set up the as400 webserver (for good reason as it is not difficult but uncommon) IF for example it was set up we could be done with your little app in a week, Bargin with websydain that this is a short project but for long term could grow, ask them to setup the environment as part of the cost. create a partnership and I for one think they deliver.

Summary:
1 POC of C++ panels on monday and get client buyin, could even look at using login or remote access just to show what there performance would be like.
2. Build on your SOA and architecture strat of the 'Intermediary Warehouse' and build great PLEX business objects that can then be offered to what ever calling tier, mabe look at websydain transacxml to give you plex soap, or wcf opton but may be performance costly as far as i know they would not run on as400..
3. Front end... webydain express....
4. RElook at the 2E webservices import, weboption etc think it has come on somewhat.

[Legacy User]

Hi Wayne
As George, Crispin, Axel or Rob explained, there are several options to build web applications with Plex. Among all these options, I worked in last seven or eight years with two of them; first with Websydian, and later with Webclient+, for two different companies. Both products are able to build good web applications, and both of them are by far more than a panel converter, even you can make a gradual strategy starting from current applications.
I worked with Websydian by using an IBM http server in the base variant which used CGI. Later, Websydian evolved to a robust java server, but I don´t have experience on it. A strong point for Websydian is the set of patterns extending basic functionality (web services, security). In the case of Webclient, it uses a JEE server in the backend (I suppose current Websydian version uses JEE also), and exposes an AJAX web client. The great advantage with Webclient is its support for newest technologies, particularly mobile applications (CM First claims support for cloud computing -Amazon- and web services). Webclient uses Dojo and Sencha libraries, creating a rich set of widgets available for presentation. Java variants are required (I belive it is required currently for Websydian also), and you can use widely java resources and libraries for any kind of features (I´m able to work with Excel macros by POI Apache classes, FTP by IBMTool classes, LDAP by JNDI classes, and so on). Having use of servlets, you have all the features of servlet processing at your disposition.
Regarding infrastructure, as said for Websydian, I used an IBM http server mounted on a devoted iSeries passing through a firewall. We retrieved data from other iSeries servers by means of DDM in that case for several extranet applications.
As for my current experience with Webclient, we are using a Websphere application server for backend, a firewall for extranet access, and LDAP verification for intranet access. Some of these applications are planned for intensive use, and large number of connections. For such cases we are planning a clustered infrastructure. I'm testing mobile clients also (both for tablets and mobile phones), but yet not in production.
Broadly, your Plex applications could start with a very simple architecture, and scale to complex structures if required.
Variants: In my experience, it's convenient, but not necessary, to create variants for better use of models. Moving existent applications to web could reuse almost the full existing application. You not need to expose all your application but only required parts. In the case of Webclient, you can start from your existent panel, wich is an advantage at design time, because it behaves in some way as a web designer (it differs from Webclient, where you only can see your web design at generation time).
There are lots of points to discuss if you want. Let me know if more detail is required.

Note: Even though we mounted our architecture on iSeries servers, it is not required (it only a matter of reliablity). You can use any JEE compliant application server on any OS/hardware you want.

Jorge Ubeda

[Legacy User]

Wayne,
George,

I fully agree :smile with this statemant:

GeorgeJeffcock wrote:

Firstly good replies,

Secondly I would look at http://wiki.plex-xml.com/index.php/Main_Page

This means a web framework for CA Plex named [color=#325ab4]PlexXML[color] from allabout GmbH, Hamburg. http://www.allabout.de/

I think it's also worth to "threw an eye" on [color=#325ab4]WebSydian Express[color] or [color=#325ab4]WebClient i+[color] (url's inside this thread).
Every tool has its advantages and I think everybody has to findout disadvantages if there are.

We use [color=#325ab4]PlexXML[color] web framework and there are several reasons for that (and let me emphasize, this is our reasons, nobody has to agree with).
[color=#325ab4]PlexXML[color] follows the MVC approach (Model View Controller), and probably this is not only an advantage [color=#325ab4]PlexXML[color] has.
So, the user interface of [color=#325ab4]PlexXML[color] is seperated from CA Plex. This means, that you do not have to use the PanelEditor to build your UI, this is controlled by XSLT.
Standard layouts were built automatically by PlexXML servlet engine (and components). Complex layouts must be handmade or generated by available tools.
Some of the features:
[list]
[*]using of a business function with one or more "formats"
[*]different client layouts for individual users and/or groups
[*]for each format we can define different columns, different sorting, different filtering to be shown, using only 1 business function (on the fly)
[*]dynamic SQL in a blockfetch, depending on the criteria and data from the formats
[*]Up-to-date html web interface
[*]easy use of multi language support via integrated dictionary
[*]comes with security layer and local maintained user + LDAP password validation
[*]functional and data oriented security
[*]...
[list]
Layout changes can be done directly in the UI (in every format), by administrators or allowed users.
This means, we use the full power of CA Plex for db layer and server programs and [color=#325ab4]PlexXML[color] for the presentation layer.

Use this for a structured help wiki: http://tutorial.plex-xml.com/aServlet?request=dox

I don't want to rate these tools, because all of us have different visions, so everybody has to decide by his own, which one ist best tool for his needs.

Regards,
Axel

[Legacy User]

Wayne,

waynemorgan wrote:

...are theer any Docs out there with actual Detail on how to get a simple web based app to work in the real world - not just in a theoritical demo

just to give you a really simple example of a working application, built wit CA Plex backend and PlexXML UI. Look at http://www.coupons.de
If you want to get more information, contact the guys at allabout.

Regards,
Axel

[Anon Anon]

waynemorgan wrote:

...are theer any Docs out there with actual Detail on how to get a simple web based app to work in the real world - not just in a theoritical demo

Wayne and Axel,
a pretty simple and may be familiar example can be found here: http://tutorial.plex-xml.com/
This is a web version of the tutorial application that is shipped with Plex

How to get there is described (more or less) here: http://wiki.plex-xml.com/index.php/Plex-XML_Tutorial

I hope this can give you a first impression of what a simple Plex based web application is all about


regards
Günter

[Anon Anon]

Guenter wrote:

a pretty simple and may be familiar example can be found here: http://tutorial.plex-xml.com/
This is a web version of the tutorial application that is shipped with Plex

Günter,

do all apps developed with PlexXML have that graphic interface (like the left-panel and the title above) or are we free to decide the interface with some HTML, XSLT and JS manipulation?


Best regards,
Pedro

[Anon Anon]

Hi Pedro,

I understand how frustrating it must be trying to navigate through the selection of web tools for Plex. Which one should you choose? What suits your needs? Which features and benefits do the various tools offer?

There’s no easy answer. Needs, aims and environments differ, so “It depends…”. I cannot tell you what the right choice for you is, but I can offer you insight into Websydian. I will be happy to set up a remote meeting with one of our developers (not a sales person - a developer) so you can present your aims and technical set-up, and we could see how and to which degree Websydian may provide value for you.

Any other community member with the same frustration is of course welcome as well.

Just let me know.

Anne-Marie

[George Jeffcock]

Hi Pedro,

I do not envy you and I was thinking how difficult I would find it to choose these days even with my plex experience but as you have said you are just starting out you would be foolish not to speak to ALL vendors to get a fast track on knowledge as your decision now will be enjoyed by others for many years to come... Take websydian up on ther offer to speak to a developer and he can give a good overview of websydian firstly bit also the history of plex and the web.

Don't discount creating everthing in the plex model except for the UI as an option allowing maybe a greater pool of developers to create a specialist front end leaving you to concentrate on the data base, logic, business etc

Good luck

[Legacy User]

Pedro,
quick answer of what I know about. There are just few (2 at the moment) templates, that allow you to change the layout "on-the-fly" from a treeview based menu on the left hand side to a menu on the top (like some web sites are).
But if you do not like what you can see there, you are free to design your own style with the given techniques. So if you are familiar with xml and xsl/xslt, it should be easy for you to do so.
Axel

[Anon Anon]

Hi everyone!

I'm new to the PLEX world and I created a thread (99624543 where i asked some advice about how to create a web-based app with PLEX to be accessed in multiple platforms (PC, Mobile, Tablets).

AxelOberlaender redirected me to this thread in order to enlight me on the subject and i have to thank him for that.


I'm a real rookie to all this so i apologise in advance if i say something really wrong, but from what i read here there's quite a few solutions to create a web-based solution with PLEX. Some have licence fees (Websydian, WebClient...) and some are free (PLEX-XML) but how can i evaluate and decide which one fits my needs? Some of the features i have for my app are as follows:
Autentication-Autorization, Multitenancy, dealing with import/export of excel files, sending emails to multiple addresses, some rich web controls like data tables, ajax, auto-complete, etc.


I'm totally oblivious on the matter of the advantages and limitations of each one of this solutions and i appreciate if anyone could shed some light on the subject and guide me (or kick me :tongue) in the right direction.


Thanks.

Best regards,
Pedro

[Legacy User]

Hello Pedro,

to get a quick impression, you can download a presentation of PlexXML with this link: https://communities.ca.com/web/ca-plex-ca-2e-global-user-community/document-library/-/document_library/view/87668164/62192?_20_redirect=https%3a%2f%2fcommunities.ca.com%2fweb%2fca-plex-ca-2e-global-user-community%2fdocument-library%2f-%2fdocument_library%2fview%2f87668164%3f_20_advancedSearch%3dfalse%26_20_keywords%3d%26_20_cur2%3d2%26_20_topLink%3ddocuments-home%26_20_delta2%3d20%26_20_andOperator%3dtrue%26%23p_20&#p_20


It's from 2007 and there is much more functionality today, but to get an idea of the technical background, I think this is ok.
If you go to the "community documents" section, you will find loads of presentations about the other tools, too.
hth
Axel