Win98 with Mac BigSur

[navaide]

I already have VMware installed for usage of WIN98 on Mac with BigSur OS. My work requires those versions. What's installed (by MacMedics with a CD they instructed me to buy) is primitive with no vmware folder having all "vmdk" files + several subfolders etc. etc. etc. It's "bare-bones" -- e.g., with both autoexec.bat and config.sys at 0-bytes, no file sharing set up, no VMwareTools, etc. My old Mac with an older Mac OS has all that (someone not available now set it up for me), so I need to copy that capability to the newer Mac. No deadline, no hurry; instead of promptness I need what will dependably work. This should be do-able via internet and phone. From the Win98 I don't need internet contact nor many other functions Windows often provides. My main usage will be with old versions of programs that work perfectly well on my old Mac -- including Matlab plus a text editor called "PC-EDT" plus WordPerfect 6.1 and an old version of Microsoft Word from Microsoft Office. I have one folder on the Windows Desktop and will need to add a ram-disk plus a few more folders for file sharing (which I don't know how to make happen; if my shared folders can't exceed 1/4 GB I'll have to use a temporary small folder before and after every VMware session).  The existing C: drive on my older Mac has the Matlab, WordPerfect etc. -- it needs to replace the bare-bones C: on my new Mac.  I don't know how to do that (you can see my lack of VMware savvy).  
I could use a set of instructions with some coaching. That way I could repeat the procedure later if needed; I'd prefer that rather than a 1-time operation. Can someone teach me how to put my existing capability on my newer Mac?  Do I need to hire a consultant?  If so, how can I find one who can reliably do the job?

[Scott Vessey]

So you want to run Windows 98 in a virtual machine (VM)  on your newer Mac, right?

If so, Fusion is the VMware software which can host VMs on a Mac.

Fusion 12 is the latest version, and has a Player version which is free for personal use: https://www.vmware.com/products/fusion/fusion-evaluation.html

You would need to migrate your Windows 98 installation to a VM, that’s called “physical to virtual” (P2V), VMware used to have a tool which did that but it’s not currently available, an alternative tool is from StarWind but I have no idea if it supports Windows 98: https://www.starwindsoftware.com/starwind-v2v-converter

I have reported your thread to a moderator, it needs to be moved, probably to the area for Fusion.

 

[wila]

Hi,

---

 wrote:

My old Mac with an older Mac OS has all that (someone not available now set it up for me), so I need to copy that capability to the newer Mac.

---

If you already have Windows 98 running on your old mac using VMware Fusion then you can  basically copy over the old Windows 98 virtual machine to the new mac and start using it.

A virtual machine is a bit like a Word Document where the document can be opened on another computer as long as you have MS Word. So you do not need to install everything from the begin, you can use the Windows 98 virtual machine that you already have.

The basic steps are as follows:

•  shut down the windows 98 virtual machine
•  if you have snapshots open then commit those snapshots
• copy the whole virtual machine bundle to an external disk.
  • you can locate the virtual machine via VMware Fusion, in Virtual Machine library, right click on the name in the left hand side and select "Show in Finder"
  • If your VM is in a bundle then it will show the whole VM as a single file and you can copy that
  • If your VM is in a folder then it will select a .vmx file and you will have to copy the whole folder that .vmx file lives in.
• On the new machine, copy the VM from the external disk to your system
• With VMware Fusion, use "File -> Open" menu to open the VM on your new system
• When starting VMware Fusion will ask "did you copy or move this VM" always answer "move". The copy option will assign new virtual hardware and that is just troublesome without any additional benefits for your case.

Those are the basic steps.
If anything not clear, just ask here and someone will fill in the details.

edit: The above assumes that I understood correctly that your new Mac is the one running Big Sur and not that you have a new mac with a M1 processor...

--
Wil

[navaide]

I VERY MUCH appreciate the quick response info. Rather than write separate answers I've put all into one combination, which will include progress I've made in the past couple of days.  First, in Re -- some requested clarifications --
* My new Mac has an Intel, not M1, processor and yes, it's the one running Big Sur.
* Fusion 12 was successfully used for the installation on the new Mac. It works (e.g., I get the basic "My Computer" screen when I start vmware, which now has a ramdisk I just put in).  VMware tools is also present.
* The installation was done with a Bundle. Although I provided the installer with a full set of files from the old Mac, the installation for some reason was bare-bones (e.g. -- 0 bytes in autoexec.bat; 0 bytes in config.sys -- which I changed to put the ramdisk in; most application programs missing, etc.).
* That might be OK; the old Mac has outdated stuff. I can give the new Mac a clean C: drive.  Another reason is I've let the two Macs diverge; each may have a few things not on the other.
* I haven't yet succeeded in getting file sharing to work. That's mainly where I need help; from "My Computer" I don't see any command to map a network drive (or should that be done from the Mac side?).
* Since my Windows work consists of a small number of functions, I'd like to proceed thus: First, get file sharing to work. Then connect a folder I can use as a scratch-pad I'll copy to from the old Mac's documents and programs (e.g., whole folders under C:\Program Files --
if that's too laborious I can just copy the entire C:\Progra~1 folder; it will easily fit).  I'd also copy whole folders under C:\Matlab, C:\Office, chosen parts under C:\Windows, etc.

It will take some work but, unless there's something fundamentally wrong with this plan, I can get through it. Again, I'm very grateful for the responses received.

[wila]

Hi,

With the VM running go to the menu ->

Virtual Machine -> Sharing -> Sharing settings

You can then add the folders you want to share there.

More details: https://docs.vmware.com/en/VMware-Fusion/8.0/com.vmware.fusion.using.doc/GUID-6F5059DD-5449-4820-AAE8-F541C229AEDE.html

--
Wil

[navaide]

Thanx, that's what I had tried earlier.  I'm sure it's right but my problem is my network being inaccessible.  Network Neighborhood tells me "for more information look in the Help Index at the topic 'Network Troubleshooter' -- I don't even see where that is.  On my old Mac the Network Neighborhood shows Machost -- when I click that, it shows //Samba 3.6.23   However, what works on that is "broken" from what I'm told.  On that old Mac, as root I put in two things on the command line -- /usr/local/sbin/smbd & /usr/local/sbin/nmbd -- before exiting (someone worked that out for me years ago), but that can't be used on the new one.  I'm sure there's a way but not sure samba is it for this.  Settings under Control Panel look very similar to what's on the old Mac; I don't suspect those.  For Internet Properties, almost all settings are the same as on the old Mac except under the Programs tab -- the new but not the old Mac has IE checking to see whether it's the default browser and also the new Mac leaves blank the HTML editor (MS-Word on the old Mac).

The answer may be staring me right in the face while I'm too clueless to see it. The new Mac Desktop has "Setup MSN Internet Access" and a folder "Online Services" containing a bunch of things that are old or unused.  It also has IE and Outlook Express; those four things were provided by the vmware installer (who, I just figured out, wanted to ensure that my own programs wouldn't  automatically be copied to the new Mac without payments that might have been due somewhere).  Without any of those four things, the old Mac has WinScp.  That, however, has been through many revisions (as with everything else).  I'm willing to learn COMM procedures, protocols etc. but don't know which ones to go by.  Grateful for and open to advice.

 

[wila]

IIRC then VMware Tools shared folders works for Win98 (checking)

Oh dear, I'm wrong. This was not yet available in VMware Tools for Windows 98.
As for using samba instead... I have my doubts that that is going to work with BigSur.

The only protocol that Windows 98 will be able to use is SMB1.0 and that protocol has been deemed unsafe for a few years. As a result pretty much all modern operating systems no longer support it.

One option that is left is pretty much -> create a virtual floppy in a modern VM that has shared folder support and use the floppy that way. That is VERY convoluted.

Another one is ... drag & drop.
You can actually drag a file from macOS to Win98 and from Win98 to macOS.

That means not using the VM in full screen mode as otherwise you can't drag & drop.

Good luck!

--
Wil

[navaide]

Some programs just won't work on anything later than Win98. So I need it.  The 'history' is: A VMBundle from my old Mac was used to install VMware.  It omitted my application-related files for the new Mac's virtual C-drive.  I need to build them into its virtual C: drive BUT the network is inaccessible, though all tabs under ControlPanel->Network (Configuration, Identification, and "Access Control) match old settings. On the "Client for Microsoft Networks" of ControlPanel->Network, Configuration tab "Properties" is grayed out on both new
and old Mac (the old one communicates OK with its virtual machine via WinScp).

I drag-&-drop folders to Windows Desktop but the VM can't communicate with it.  VMwareTools is installed but probably lacks file sharing capability for Win98.  Still I could get by with just WindowsDesktop-to-C: communication.  All my efforts now must begin with establishing that crucial step.  Unfortunately it begins with Internet Explorer (IE) which is limited and also restricted to http (it won't go where I send it when I try to use https).  Trying to download Chrome from IE produced "File can't be found" message -- is there a way around that?

I tried setup via Internet Connection Wizard from Internet Properties to use my existing service provider. The Wizard indicated success but the first attempt produced this message after I clicked "Finish" - Access Denied, You don't have permission to access "http://www.microsoft.com/AK_PM_VPATH2/361563/b.htm" on this server. Reference #18.8deda17.1654707444.e451abd0
On a later attempt I used IE but its basic limitations still remain.

Everything hinges on SOME way to exchange folders between Windows Desktop & C:  All info offered to me has been very valuable.     I recall from an earlier response that this conversation might have been moved to another forum.  If so, how can I reach that?

[ColoradoMarmot]

That doesn't make sense.  The c-drive is inside the .vmwarevm bundle, so if you had a functional virtual machine, and copied that bundle over from the old mac, everything would already be installed in the virtual machine.  There's no need to rebuild the virtual machine from scratch.

If you really have software that only runs on a nearly 25 year old OS, it probably is past time to look for alternatives.  When you move to M1, Win98 will no longer be an option (nor will any other intel based OS), so there's a hard stop out in the future for sure.  Might as well make the move now because Win98's time to compromise for being on the internet is usually measured in minutes these days.   The browsers in it (much like the SMB issue mentioned above) only support outdated SSL/TLS and will no longer work with the vast majority of websites (and chrome doesn't run on win98 in any case AFAIK).

[navaide]

In re - "It doesn't make sense" - it DOES make sense if you read how the installer made a bundle WITHOUT applications my old Mac uses.  Yes I realize the problems with old software.  The fact remains -- certain programs were never adapted to anything beyond -- so changing to versions written for the updated OS will be time-consuming in a big way.

[RDPetruska]

Still doesn't make sense. 

You should have an installer file for VMware Fusion product itself, to download and run on your new Mac.

From the old Mac, you should copy (possibly zip up the entire folder to make it easier) the contents of the existing virtual machine (which on Mac is disguised as a single *.bundle file) onto some removable media.  Take that to the new Mac, and copy/extract there.  Launch Fusion and tell it to open an existing virtual machine, point to the folder you copied.  Run.  The first time, tell it you moved it (rather than copied it).  Done.

[navaide]

I appreciate that but one big obstacle remains: Suppose I do the installation you described and then generate a new document with it. How can I send it anywhere outside of Win98? Or suppose I need to work in Windows using some files not included in the installation -- how can I make them available to a Win98? If I could just get something in or out of the installed C: drive that would be great, even though I can't share my other drives. One possibility was mentioned involving a virtual floppy but I need to move things that are at least a few MB. It's like the Win98 on BigSur is a closed system; drag-&-drop to its desktop doesn't enable me to communicate with its C: drive. The only thing that can communicate with it is the removable drive, and then only to do a whole installation -- true?.

[wila]

One last try from my end as I seem to be speaking another language.

See the recording I made attached below.

--
Wil

 

 Video

• Windows98DragAndDrop.mp4

[navaide]

Thanx again and please see my latest reply at the end.

[wila]

Hi,

Network sharing between Win98 and your Big Sur machine won't work.. as I mentioned above that is because Big Sur no longer supports the very very old Samba protocol that Windows 98 works with.

Browsing the internet won't work as nothing out there is compatible with Windows 98 and Windows 98 itself does not have the security protocols needed for modern https. Almost any website requires https (SSL/TLS) nowadays. So that is out of the window too.

Drag and drop between macOS and Windows 98 desktop should work, provided you have VMware Tools installed in your Windows 98 VM. I tested that yesterday before I wrote the reply.

re. Some software only works on Windows 98.

It is possible.. but that is very very rare and usually involves hardware devices. Outside of that I got almost everything working on Windows 10 or Windows 11 that was originally written for Windows 98. It helps if you know some of the Windows internals I guess.
Windows has a variety of compatibility modes it can provide. Almost nothing else compares to that.

edit:

---

 wrote:

 I recall from an earlier response that this conversation might have been moved to another forum.  If so, how can I reach that?

---

A moderator moved your post to the Fusion forum. You would not have gotten much answers otherwise.

--
Wil

[navaide]

Yes, thanx again, drag and drop between macOS and Windows 98 desktop does work; I've been doing that.  I've been hoping to do one more thing: getting material from the Windows 98 desktop to the Windows 98 C: drive.   That would make all the difference in the world.  That raises a question in my mind -- what does the Windows desktop offer?  Just curious; I never thought much about what it's good for.

[RDPetruska]

---

 wrote:

I've been hoping to do one more thing: getting material from the Windows 98 desktop to the Windows 98 C: drive.   That would make all the difference in the world.  That raises a question in my mind -- what does the Windows desktop offer?  Just curious; I never thought much about what it's good for.

---

Huh?  the Windows desktop is merely a visualization of the contents of a folder ON the Windows C: drive (see C:\users\username\Desktop).  Just open 'My Computer' (aka Windows Explorer aka Explorer), browse to the folder you want to go to, then drag/drop to/from the desktop.

[navaide]

You've addressed the key question in my mind -- there's should be a USERS folder under C:  On mine it ISN'T there.  By now it's clear I'm clueless about Windows; for decades I've spent all my time on making a computer do what I want and ZERO time on how it's done.  I let a third party do my installation and much was left out.  The folders I have directly under C: -- only 3 -- are MY DOCUMENTS +  WINDOWS + PROGRAM FILES.  The USERS folder isn't on my old computer's virtual C: either, presumably because that used the old Samba for file sharing.  The question now is: how to get users/.../Desktop on my new Mac.  If there's some way, that will be a life saver.

[RDPetruska]

OK I don't remember the *exact* path where the Desktop lives on Win98...  On WinXP is is on C:\Documents and Settings\<username>\Desktop.  Perhaps that's the path.  MS had a habit of changing the default layouts as they released new versions of Windows.  Sometimes it's under C:\Windows\somethingoranother.

Our point with all of this has been this:  If this existing Win98 virtual machine worked on your old Mac...  Then all you need to do to have it operating the EXACT same way on your new Mac is to

1. Install VMware Fusion on your new Mac
2. With the old VM shut down, exit fusion.  Copy the ENTIRE contents of the Win98 folder (it may be disguised as a single file, something like "Win98.vmbundle") to some removable media.
3. Take that media to your new Mac.  Copy the bundle or folder to your new Mac.
4. Launch Fusion.  Select Open an existing virtual machine.  Browse to where you copied the Win98 VM and select it.
5. Choose "I moved it" to the prompt which will appear the first time.
6. Ta-da.  Same machine on a different laptop.

If you were able to drag-n-drop between your host Mac and the guest Win98 before, you should still be able to do so now.  If you are able to drag-n-drop that way, then you can drop the files ANYWHERE inside the Win98 VM - whether directly onto the desktop, or have an explorer window open to a folder where you want the files to go, and drop them there.  etc. etc. etc.

 

[navaide]

OK, I finally got it. All who responded here have been very helpful and very patient with me. I'll understand if you wonder why I'm lost in outer space. I'm an old duffer who started with DOS, accumulated utilities available to it, lost patience with Windows a quarter century ago, switched to Linux for ten years, couldn't keep up with that, went to Mac using virtuals because the world loves Windows (I HATE IT), letting others set up VMware while I never think about it. That allowed me to concentrate on my work IRRESPECTIVE OF HOW the computer did everything; old programs remain available to me. An example: ancient WordPerfect, vastly superior to MS-Word, was
never the same after its owners stranded zillions of users by selling out. I have tons of WPD documents plus a whole book I wrote and typeset with complicated matrix equations, diagrams and other graphics images, plots of flight test results, changes in formatting and fonts all over, headers/footers etc. -- the works. There are more examples but here's the point: others have similar experiences of being stymied by software. "Computer semi-literates" will try to cover every detail but can overlook the most obvious item, leaving something vital missing.

God bless all of you for helping an old duffer continue working, for your patience with me and your generosity in steering me toward finally understanding. Today's kids could come through for you one day if future software distracts your main focus. A lesson learned from all this is that a treadmill can be sidestepped for years as old working habits are preserved with a new OS. I hope others can be as fortunate as I've been. Another topic worth consideration is how to enable future "computer semi-literates" to keep on truckin' despite inexorable changes.

[wila]

Hi,

No worries. Not everyone has a full time job in IT and I think that's a good thing.

As for the example. I used WordPerfect and can understand the sentiment.
FWIW, you can actually get it to work on a recent version of Windows, including using it in full screen, working printer(s) and what not.

But it is a bit of a technical adventure.
See for example: https://www.wpuniverse.com/vb/forum/wordperfect/dos-wordperfect/37606-wordperfect-5-1-on-32-bit-windows-10-a-simple-how-to-guide

However if you have a solution right now.. then I wouldn't go and try to fix what isn't broken.
As long as you don't need to connect to the internet, you should be fine with Win98.
At least for now.

--
Wil

[navaide]

It's successful as far as possible, given the WIN98-BigSur age difference. This level of success was reached through VMware support from a guy patiently walking me through many steps (despite my severe lack of IT know-how -- much gratitude for that). My understanding now is that
* Drag-&-drop offers by far the most practical way to bring files from Mac to WIN98 and vice-versa
* file share from a MAC with older OS also works, only if that older Mac is running WIN98 by VMware
* another way is the virtual floppy you mentioned (probably limited to 1.4 MB -- true ?)
* one more way would use copy-&-paste but only for TXT and less than 64KB
* even if an ancient Samba version could be used it wouldn't be safe
* also in regard to safety, I gave IEXPLORE the extension EX0 instead of EXE -- enough to disable?
* for practical purposes, Samba as I need it (on my MacOS 11.6) is unavailable
I saw an Internet conversation saying OS 11.5 enabled file sharing via Samba but not OS11.6 --
That gave me temporary optimism but going back now seems unwise, now that I have one way to work.  (Monterey is a no-no but what about risk of upgrading to OS 11.6.8 or beyond? )
If I decide one way is all I need, then Drag-&-drop is the one dependable practical solution.
It enables me to bring files into WIN98 and, after I use WIN98 to change them, to get results out.
Thanx again for all past updates and let me know if I'm overlooking anything.

[wila]

What says..

The desktop is designed for easy access to a variety of things. Either for shortcuts to applications or for actual data. You can also make it pretty by setting a specific background. Considering what it actually is (as Robert says "it's just a folder" ) it has a surprising importance within Windows. For a lot of people it is very important and gives them something to customize. For others.. it's mainly just a folder.

One other note. When you drag and drop between macOS and your Windows 98 VM, you can drop the files directly in the Windows Explorer folder where you want them. You do not have to go past the desktop. Instead drop it on the folder that Windows Explorer has opened.

--
Wil